767PIC: Overfly-Wpts / Pitot
 

Hallo Freunde!

Als Neuling an der 767PIC (ich fliege übrigens grade mit der Thomas-Cook 767 von GVAC / Amilcar Cabral (Cabo VerdE) nach EDDF... :D) hab ich mal zwei Fragen, die ich mit der Suchen-Funktion nicht klären konnte:

1.) Vom PSS A320 bin ich es gewöhnt, dass man das Flugzeug zwingen kann, einzelne Wegpunkte wirklich zu überfliegen und erst danach den nächsten Wegpunkt anzusteuern (was beinahe unerlässlich ist, um Approaches zu programmieren), indem man den Wegpunkt mit OVRFLY markiert.
Gibt es in der 767 diese Möglichkeit auch?
Und wenn nein, wie programmiert ihr dann Anflüge wie zum Beispiel Standardanflüge auf
EDDL, EDLW, EDLP, EDDK, EHAM
ein, bei denen z.B. von einem VOR von einem Flughafen weg geflogen wird bis zu einer bestimmten DME, und dann ein ca. 150° Turn auf den Final nötig ist? Oder diverse Missed Approaches?

2.) Im 767 PIC Cockpit existiert ja kein Pitot Heat Schalter. Wird mit dem neusten Patch Pitot Heat irgendwie automatisch aktiviert, und wenn ja wann?
Ich habe nämlich ein Gauge aus dem Lear in das Cockpit "eingebaut", aber immer wenn ich Pitot Heat anschalte, geht es sofort wieder aus. Dito mit shift-h. Pitot Heat leuchtet kurz im Display auf und verschwindet sofort wieder. :confused:

Vielen Dank für etwaige Tips,

Gruß, Felix

Hope that helps to answer your 2nd question.


E. General Systems

Application of PITOT HEAT is automatic.
When the engines are shut down, the pitot heat is automatically turned OFF. When an engine is started, the pitot heat is automatically turned ON. In A new EICAS CAUTION has been added called “PROBE HEAT” to indicate that pitot heat is OFF.

for further details see:
http://www.flightsimnetwork.com/efpa...IC11Update.doc

Another location with very helpful information's about the 767 can be found here:
http://www.smartcockpit.com/ => Boeing 767 => Ice & Rain

Actually these information's are for the real 767, but you can use them for your PIC 767!!!
Strongly recommend to remove your "self-made" pitot heat switch, you will only mess up your PIC 767 with it!!!

Sam

Hello Sam!

Thanx for your helpfull reply!

I just didn't know if 767PIC aplies pitot heat automatically if it works as I was confused if it was patched or always working. If will remove the Learjet pitot switch after my current flight.

Do you know in which conditions the text "PROBE HEAT" permanently appears in the upper EICAS display in real life and in the PIC 767?

Greatings,

Felix

To make my reply more precise:

Appears "PROBE HEAT" in the upper EICAS if probe heat is engaged by the system in icing conditions or does the message indicate that it is not usable? And how is this logic applied in PIC?

Thanks,

Felix

Answer to question #1

First I recommend to download the FMC tutorial from Wilcopub:
ftp://ftp.wilcopub.com/767_FMC.pdf
Do the tutorial flight, if you don't feel comfortable after, do the flight again and repeat it as long till you know all flows by heart ;)

But now back to your approach.
Example:
Cologne - EDDK, LOC-VOR approach for runway 32R

(Jeppesen Approach plate from the 4th Sept. 1998)

Your IAF will be KBO VOR (112.15) and let's say you arrive via the "Germinghausen Two Victor (GMH.2V) STAR.
So your LEG page on your FMC should look like that:

GMH ---/5000
253° 24nm
WYP 170/3000
------

Now you need to enter your IAF (Initial Approach Fix) which will be KBO.
Type KBO below your last waypoint (WYP)

GMH ---/5000
253° 24NM

WYP 170/3000
205° 12NM

KBO
------

Now comes to fun part, our approach plate wants us to leave KBO on a 119° outbound radial from KBO and that for 10.2 nm
(KBO R-119° D10.2 )
Do enter this imaginary waypoint we type: KBO119/10.2 on our scratchpad and then we click on the left LSK (Line Select Key) below KBO.
Our FMC should read as follows:

GMH ---/5000
253° 24NM

WYP 170/3000
205° 12NM

KBO ---/----
119° 10NM

KBO01 ---/----
------

Next waypoint is (KBO R-139° D9.2)
Be careful, on the plate it says only D9.2 KBO, but the 9.2 waypoint is depicted on the 319° inbound radial!!! But we always need to enter an outbound radial, so it's 319°-180 = 139°
We type KBO139/9.2 into to scratchpad and click on the left LSK below KBO01


GMH ---/5000
253° 24NM

WYP 170/3000
205° 12NM

KBO ---/----
119° 10NM

KBO01 ---/----
235° 4NM

KBO02 ---/----
------

We can now finish our approach by adding the LOM (Outer Marker Beacon), which is 5nm from KBO, so we type: KBO139/5 or just type LV for the LV NDB (327) which is identical with the LOM here.

Finaly you can chose runway 32R from the DEP/ARR page and now your FMC looks like this:


GMH ---/5000
253° 24NM

WYP 170/3000
205° 12NM

KBO ---/----
119° 10NM

KBO01 ---/----
235° 4NM

KBO02 ---/----
324° 4NM

LV ---/----
318° 4NM

RW32R ---/0301
------

Almost perfect, but even better with the appropriate altitudes, speeds depend on your weight and flap settings.

GMH ---/5000
253° 24NM

WYP 170/3000
205° 12NM

KBO ---/3000
119° 10NM

KBO01 ---/3000
235° 4NM

KBO02 ---/3000
324° 4NM

LV ---/1680
318° 4NM

RW32R ---/0301
------


Have fun

Sam

Hello Sam!

You are right, this is one of the approaches I reffered to. On my plate, it is an ILS approach (Jeppesen 4. Sep. 98), but the procedure is in LNAV the same.

You just described the way I would try to enter the approach. But if the 767 really follows the depicted red line in the Nav display, it would turn BEFORE reaching KBO01 so it can't intercept the LOC in the right position. The turn radius would also be smaler, which could lead to overshooting the LOC.

I didn't try to enter this specific approach, but as I did a similar approach monday to LCLK Larnaca / Cyprus, I learned that the 767 PIC would act this way.

So I would try to force the FMC to overfly KBO01 (KBO 119° D10.2) and THEN turn to KBO02 (D9.2 KBO). This would better reflect the real procedure.
I know that this is possible with the PSS A230 FMC, but I don't know how to do this with the PIC FMC (if it is possible).

The other possiblity would be to enter perhaps D12 instead of D10.2 on a basis of "try and error", to make the turn in the right point, but if there is a better way, I would preffer it!


AN ALLE LESER, DIE NICHT SO GUT ENGLISCH SPRECHEN:

Ich möchte euch nicht ausschließen... Bitte antwortet, wenn ihr eine Lösung wisst!

Thanx, Felix

Re: 767PIC: Overfly-Wpts / Pitot
 

Hi Felix,

we started using English, so I'll just continue. Just in case that no everyone in this thread might be familiar with German.

> Gibt es in der 767 diese Möglichkeit auch?

This applies to all "heavy" Boeings (747, 757, 767, 777) with Honeywell-manufactured FMCs: the answer is "no". On the Honeywell FMC box, the pilot does not have the ability to change a waypoint type from fly-by to fly-over or from fly-over to fly-by. Indeed, this can be done by a button on the e.g. Airbus MCDU.

> Und wenn nein, wie programmiert ihr dann Anflüge wie zum
> Beispiel Standardanflüge auf EDDL, EDLW, EDLP, EDDK, EHAM
> ein, bei denen z.B. von einem VOR von einem Flughafen weg
> geflogen wird bis zu einer bestimmten DME, und dann ein ca.
> 150° Turn auf den Final nötig ist? Oder diverse Missed
> Approaches?

The trick is - you don't.

If it's a standard approach it has already been pre-programmed by our NavData base supplier (e.g. Jeppesen or Aerad). The point is: pre-programmed approach, arrival and departure procedures are different from manually programmed procedures!

Pre-programmed procedures from the database
- are more precise: position accuracy is 0.001' vs. 0.1' for pilot-entered waypoints
- may contain conditional (!) waypoints which cannot be entered by the pilots
- do contain fly-by/fly-over information in the Nav-Database. This cannot be changed by the pilot

So, if it's a published approach, either precision or non-precision, you do load the approach from the NavDatabase instead of entering the waypoints yourself. Please note that the electronically coded procedures MIGHT be different from the charted procedure. Also, in some cases, e.g. a recently modificed procedure might not yet be coded into the database so it's either manual programming or raw data flying for the flight crew.

The Big Boeing FMC User's guide (http://www.fmcguide.com/) contains excellent details on this subject. In Germany, it can be ordered e.g. through Aerosoft in Paderborn. It's a must for the serious pilot! ;)

Markus

Agree 100% with Markus! The Big Boeing FMC User Guide is an absolute must! Use it for the PIC 767 and the PS1/PS1.3 747-400 from www.aerowinx.com and it always amazes me how good these two sims are!

Markus,
Thanks for pointing out the differences between the Honeywell FMC's and the Airbus MCDU, didn't know about the more accurate FMC database, very interesting!

Felix,
Sorry for misunderstanding you, I actually have the PSS A3XX, but never came across the waypoint, waypoint overfly issue :rolleyes: Don't fly it very often.
Hope somebody will soon release a better Airbus, well, the PIC A320, the Anticyclone A340 and the SSW A310 look all very promising :)

Back to your pitot heat question.
The yellow message "PROBE HEAT" only appears in the upper EICAS, real and PIC, if pitot heat is out of order or engines are off. Reduces pilot workload!
You can simulate a pitot heat failure with PIC 767 and watch how the yellow "PROBE HEAT" message appears in the upper EICAS.

Sam

Thank you very much, Sam and Markus for explaining this to me.

But I still have one question: is there any posibility in 767PIC to encode overfly waypoints in the IAP-database files you can load in the FMC? I know there is at least one editor around for creating procedures outside the PIC FMC (Free PIC Editor 2.35), but it doesn't seem to have this feature.
But I think I remember an editor with more features which I found by accident when looking for tools for Navdash long time ago. I didn't keep it because I didn't own 767PIC in these days.

I hope not to confuse everything, but I think I have seen this future in some SIDS I used recently.

The stategy to make fatures of the FMC available only for pre-coded procedures exists also in the PSS A320 FMC, for example with precoding interception of radials, which is not usable for the pilot. I don't really know if this is exact for real life.

If it is abloutly impossible to use fly-over waypoints in the FMC, raw data flying will become more common for me... I would miss overfly waypoitns espascially for pre-programming missed approach procedures, which very often only use such waypoints.

to Sam:

Although I am very impressed with the 767PIC degree of realism, I still like the PSS A3xx very much.. OK, it has serious downsides on the overhead panel, where they created to many dummy switches, and, more serious, often not even that. The implementation of the logic of every simgle system is the real plus for the 767PIC.
But I like the A3xx for its good recreation of the airbus-philosophy, which I like very much (although non-normal laws are not modelled).
When looking at the panel of the 767, I often feel distracted from the chaos allover the panel which keeps me from looking at the VASI on final and makes it difficult to find informations fast... In these moments, I want my tidy-looking A320-panel back!
But I have to mention that I use 767 and the bus only in "normal laws" and not as a "failure simulator"... I can imagine that in non-normal situations, the PSS A3xx really isn't a good simulation.

Concerning the so-called A320 PIC (so-called beacause it is from a different team), I don't have high expectations. I own Airports 2002 vol. 1 by Wilco, and the included 737-700 (which isn't that bad for a bonus demo aircraft) convinced me, that virtual panels are nice looking, but in my opinion unergonomical (not to talk about FPS). (Although I miss a VP in the 767 for free zoomable sideviews) Getting completly rid of a 2D panel is in my opinion not the right way for complex simulations of jetliners. (Although Wilcos A320-VC looks really fantastic!) I am also disappointed that Wilco didn't want to make an A319 and A321 - the cockpit is simply the same.

But, as many things, this is simply a matter of personal taste and philosophy...

By the way, thank you very much for the great links - smartcockpit.com contains really detailed informations which are very usefull (windshear for example - I lost yesterday one Condor 767 because of it at EDDF)!


Sorry for those many typos and grammar errors, and thank you very much for your help and backgroud infos!

Felix

Hi Sam, Felix,

just a few more comments...

> Agree 100% with Markus! The Big Boeing FMC User Guide is
> an absolute must! Use it for the PIC 767 and the PS1/PS1.3
> 747-400 from www.aerowinx.com and it always
> amazes me how good these two sims are!

ah ... glad to see, that you have PS1.3 as well. ;) That's about the only simulator I use heavily and where all my knowledge comes from. You might be aware that I'm a frequent visitor to the Aerowinx forum and also an add-on programmer for PS1.3.

> didn't know about the more accurate FMC database, very interesting!

In fact, this information can be found in the Bulfer FMC Guide! ;) See the introductory paragraph on page 29 (Jan 1999 edition), "Identifiers".

I think the higher precision is common to ALL navdatabase on all FMCs and FMGCs! The reason is in my opinion obvious. I don't know PIC767 by heart, but you might be aware that PS1.3 has a limited resolution coordinate system. All navaids and waypoints in the FMC can be programmed only accurate to 0.1'. If you have once programmed a final approach procedure, you might have noticed that waypoints with that accuracy are NOT located on the extended centerline of the runway.
For a real FMC box this is not acceptable and thus a higher precision (e.g. better than 1 meter = 0.001' ) is required.

@Felix:

> Und wenn nein, wie programmiert ihr dann Anflüge wie zum Beispiel
> Standardanflüge auf EDDL, EDLW, EDLP, EDDK, EHAM ein, bei denen
> z.B. von einem VOR von einem Flughafen weg geflogen wird bis zu
> einer bestimmten DME, und dann ein ca. 150° Turn auf den Final
> nötig ist? Oder diverse Missed Approaches?

Funny question... why should any of these approaches requires "Fly-Over" Waypoints? I don't see an obvious reason for that.

In fact, IF a waypoint needs to be coded as Fly-Over it will have a circle around the RNAV waypoint symbol (usually a star). A nice example for that can be found on the Jeppesen 18-1 chart for Munich which is the RNAV Rway 08L approach. While DM431 and MAGAT (FAF) are fly-by, the first RNAV waypoint in the go-around is DM551 - a fly-over waypoint.

Note that the Bulfer FMC Guide contains some tricks for manual programming to ensure that a waypoint is flown over and not by. This might be requested by ATC some day.

Markus